Designing the Monster

[Lance]

So I'm starting down the road of designing my new baby after it blew late last year (R.I.P, it served me well)

I'm starting with the case and building a system around it, and I'm not going to spare any expenses with it, but I'm looking for some thoughts from anyone that knows anything about this kind of thing.

I'm going with a liquid cooling system (my first) and from what I've found, this Thermaltake Armor VH600LBWS (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1248&ID=1480) seems to be the best.

Does anyone have experience with Liquid Cooling systems and what draw backs they have (or any chassis better than the VH600)?

Unfortunately I'm looking at about $480AU or $399US for the chassis - but it should be money well spent if it's a great chassis

[Archangel]

Sir, you know not what you have unleashed this day...

You just needa give me til tomorrow afternoon when it's not midnight and I don't have to go to school. Then... then I shall uncage the geek, and it shall be glorious.

Mind you, I've the time to mention now, that water cooling is generally just a bit of a hassle and annoyance for not much benefit unless you're having some seriously hardcore hardware. I'm talking triple SLI GTX480's here.

As I'm assuming you want to be at least somewhat cost efficient here, and not just go completely overboard with everything, a single ATI 5000 series GPU will cut it just fine, and those babies are so efficient, their temperature is less than a 9800GT, or a 3870. More powerful, and runs cooler.
What I'm saying is, you probably don't need to blow the extra cashola on a water cooling system, because with modern technology actually being made efficient (mind blowing, am I right?), things are giving you more power with less heat.

But, then again, that's the little man inside me with cash-flow problems talking. If you have money, good sir, then by all means... Liquid Cool away.

I'll get back to you on specifics tomorrow, but off the very top of my head, here are the things I know...

Coolermaster ATCS 840 - It might look a little bland, but this case is among the best designed I know of. Dual 230mm top exhaust fans, 230mm front intake, 120mm rear exhaust, optional 120mm bottom intake, optional 2x120mm Harddisk module cooling, and an optional external air duct make the cooling on this thing truly beasty. Add to that the fact you can mount a dual or triple 120mm radiator inside the top of the casing, and the case offers solid water cooling support. I'll have to look into it more to see if it beats the VH600 though.

ATI 5870 - Pretty much a definite. This, or a ATI 5890. NVidia basically sucks these days, and their 400 series are terrible for their price (I think the math worked out to something like 30% more expensive for 5-10% more performance and a whole lot more to your power bill), so if you even considered anything but ATI I'd have to slap you alot. These'll offer DirectX11, high efficiency, great performance, and be generally quite awesome.

Intel Core i7 750/860/960/980x - This is where it gets finnicky. Really depends how much money you have to throw around. A 980x or 960, unless you do video encoding, ray tracing and are attempting to calculate the question to the answer 42, all simultaneously I might add, you don't need. But if you have money, be my guest. More realistically, you'll be looking at a 750 or the like $300-ish, but I figured I'd mention the alternatives just in case you are inheriting your father's million-dollar fortune.

So, yeah, that's all I got time for right now (turned out to me more than I meant to, but I get very excited about these sorts of things, so shush), but I'll follow up on the Case thing tomorrow. I'm assuming you'll just be gaming, in which case motherboard isn't really important, and any decent Gigabyte P45-ish model should cut it, along with some DDR3 RAM. Power supply can be selected once the rest is sorted, to we already know the power consumption needs.

So yeah, the core decision making is in CPU, GPU and Case.

[Lance]

Price wise... I have the money to get a serious system, but not enough to go out-right stupid - I'm looking (since you're Aussie, this is easy) at around $4,000 - $4,500

As far as the CPU goes, I'm willing to scale that down to something simple since the bulk of the work will be done by the Video Cards (as far as I'm aware, the CPU won't have anything to do if you have great GPUs). So as far as that goes, I'll scale down the CPU to afford 2 ATI 5970's. The i5 750 will probably be my choice - I don't know - the i7 870 looks good, but don't know if I really need it with the dual-ATI's

Motherboard, interesting - ASUS Maximus III Extreme should work nicely

Memory, I was already thinking DDR3 6GB - Hard Drive will be an internal 500GB SATA since I have a couple external 1TBs already

So a concise breakdown would be:

Case: Thermaltake Armor VH600LBWS (at the moment)
CPU: Intel i5 750 (still undecided on the i7 870 though)
Graphics: Dual ATI 5970's
Motherboard: ASUS Maximus III Extreme

[MyNameDidntFit]

Sir, you know not what you have unleashed this day...
He truly does not... he truly... does... not...

[Lance]

I'm happy with unleashing whatever :p

Here's a look at what I'm at at the moment (based on deals, availability where I am etc):

Case:
Thermaltake VG400LBWS (can't find the 600 anywhere in stock)

Motherboard:
ASUS Maximus III Extreme

CPU:
Intel i7 860 1156

Memory:
Corsair TR3X6G1333C9 6GB (3x 2GB sticks)

Hard Drive:
500Gb Western Digital 7200RPM SATA2 16M HDD

Video Card:
Dual ATI Radeon 5970

Power Supply:
Corsair HX1000 1000w

[MyNameDidntFit]

Only 500GB? Do/will you have externals/secondaries to back that up?

[Lance]

Yup, already have 2 1TB Western Digital My Book Externals - 2 1/2 TB should tide me over for the time being.

Oh, forgot the DVD Burner: Asus SATA 24X DRW-24B1ST SATA

[Lance]

Ok, just priced the whole thing - $3,839

A few minor things - Windows 7, some good speakers, and the Logitech G15 Keyboard and G5 Mouse and we're looking at the lower end of what I was aiming for.

[MyNameDidntFit]

Ah, yeah, 2.5TB should be well sufficient for, well, most people.


You'll excuse me if the first item of that list amuses me >.>

[Lance]

:p Since I'm running Vista on this old trash can of a laptop, 7 can't be any worse.

Though I'm going to dual run 7 with Linux - probably Ubuntu, maybe Mandriva - haven't really thought about that bit yet - just want to get the computer itself running

[Archangel]

Prepare yourself for text, gentlemen. Lots of it.

Alright, so... Graphics is one of your deciding factors here.

Firstly, Crossfiring ATI 5970s is... well, damn expensive, and additionally, highly inneficient. As you may or may not be aware, the HD5970 is essentially two (2) HD5870 GPU cores given a lower clock speed and fused onto the one PCB. Running two 5970s in Crossfire is essentially running Quad Crossfire, and as you also may or may not be aware, Quad Crossfire and SLI scales really, really badly. Two Graphics Cards gets an approximate 50% performance boost, triple gets less, and quad gets barely anything--in alot of cases, game and driver optimisation isn't up to scratch, and quad SLI or Crossfire gets you slower performance than you would with just one card.

The 5970 specifically also suffers from another flaw--that being that it's essentially two GPUs in one card, both running at lower clock speeds than a standard 5870, and both having to run from the same PCI-E slot. You get more Bus limitation, as each GPU only runs at an equivalent PCI-E x8 speed, as opposed to a full x16.

Long story short, I checked to see if my hunch was right, and it was. Two 5970s will run about 10% (on average, over about a dozen games) faster than just a single 5970. And, as it happens, two 5870s will run about 10-20% faster than a single 5970, as they don't have reduced clock speeds, and each can run on its own x16 PCI-E Bus.

So, basically, the gist of what I'm saying here is that ~$2000 on two 5970s is a very large waste of cash. I'd either go with one 5970, or two 5870s.

Now, considering that one 5890 can run Crysis Warhead at 2560*1600, with 4x Anti Aliasing on High-Very High Quality, during the frost levels, at about 35 frames per second, one 5890 pretty much has you covered, anyway. For reference, two 5870s running at the same settings will yield 41 frames per second.

Now, your choice in Graphics is important here. Important, because a Corei5 Socket 1156 Intel CPU cannot run in a X58 motherboard, and thus can only support a single x16 Bus or two 8x Buses--AKA, they're not so great for your Crossfiring needs. If you want more than one card, you want a Corei7 Socket 1366 Intel CPU, like the 930, which does run in an X58 motherboard, and does support multiple PCI-E x16 Buses.

So, if you're going to spend large sums of cash, you don't wanna have half your potential performance destroyed by Bus limitations I imagine. Which means that to Crossfire cards, you want an i7 1366 system. If you decide on just a single card, though, then you can merrily go about with your Corei5 1156 design.

So then: Crossfire Design Specs!

If you decide to go with Crossfire (and I heartily hope that if you are, you're going for two 5870s instead of two 5890s. Seriously, two 5890s are uncool. Gets worse performance in Crysis than a single one. Made me lol.), then this is probably to the extent of the stuff you'll be wanting:

Cpu: Intel Corei7 930 - about $350. There's not much to say on this. It's either a 930 for $350, or it's a 960 for upwards of $700. Or a 980x for $1600, which is... yeah... The 930is all you need, and it's the cheapest you'll get.

Motherboard: The Asus Rampage III is pretty much the Socket 1366 variant of the Maximus III, so if you're set on that design, then you'll want a Rampage III. However, truthfully, all those flashy "Gaming" motherboards are only so expensive because they offer good overclocking features. If you don't foresee yourself manually overclocking (which, with two 5870s, you probably won't ever have a need to do anyway) your hardware, then there's really not much that these boards offer that others don't.
My recommendation would be the Asus P6T. It does pretty much everything a Rampage or Maximus III does, but it's $370 instead of $550.

RAM: I should point out here that in your current design, you're anticipating Triple-Channel Memory on a non-X58 board. Only the Corei7 900s running in X58 motherboards get that, I'm afraid, so your mobo is still stuck in dual-channel.
But, for this design here, which is using a motherboard that supports Triple Channel RAM, that doesn't matter.

Corsair and G-Skill are the only brands you really want to look at in RAM, and 1600MHz RAM is preferable. G.Skill F3-12800CL6T (3x2GB) or something similar is quite fine stuff, for about $250. Interchange the CL6T part with whatever other renditions are available in your area, so long as it's still G.Skill F312800, which is 1600MHz, comes with heat dissipators, and is generally quite nice.

And then throw that in with the rest of your build and you're set for a Crossfire 1366 Socket Rig.

Or you can go with just the one GPU, and get a 1156 socket rig instead, which would bring us back to the Corei5 860, a 4x2GB kit of pretty much the same RAM and something like a Gigabyte P55 or Asus P7P55 motherboard.


Moving away from the core internals, though... I still maintain that a Coolermaster 840 is pretty much the most tank son of a bitch you'll get, and with the ability to make it triple radiated, it wins out very nicely for both standard air cooling, and for water cooling systems. Doesn't look quite as 'gamer' as a Thermaltake Armor, though, so I can understand if you don't go with it. ;)

Power Supply, given (I hope) you won't be getting two 5890s now, won't need to provide quite as much juice, so you can probably move down to a 850W model. Corsair and Seasonic are both great folks to know for PSUs, just try to look for one that's Gold or Silver certified. That means that it will have over 90% power efficiency, which means it actually close to the advertised watt output. Cheaper PSUs will advertise as being 650W or whatever, but with an efficiency rating of 80% that can go anywhere from 520W to 780W, which can have a tendency to overload stuff. Which is bad.

And now, getting into the less important points: for a hard disk, if you've got the cash, might as well try goin' for a Velociraptor drive, or even a SSD if you're feeling rich. With all this kick arse hardware, your only limitation would be on your ability to actually load stuff, which is all where the Hard Disk is at. A Velociraptor will get you significantly improved read and write speeds over a standard 7200RPM disk, which'll make all your load times and Windows boot times considerably faster. Or, if you opt for a SSD (Solid State Disk), which is much more expensive (OCZ Vertex 100GB is something like $500), will save you a lot more time on loading.

And lastly, keyboard mouse and speakers...

Keyboard and Mouse for a gaming rig isn't a hard choice: A Logitech G15 or G19 keyboard, and a Logitech G500 Mouse (Not G5. The G500 is newer, and has a much improved scroll wheel as well as less kinks that I know exist in the G5, 'cos I encountered them). Those are pretty much the best you'll get there.

Speakers are also Logitech. For a good high-quality 5.1 sound system, the Z-5500s will beat pretty much anything, but weigh in at $400. Or you can go cheap and get X-540s for $90, but they're far less awesome.

And my final thought: why not pick up a BluRay Disk Drive instead of just a DVD drive?

But yeah, that's all I've got to say for now. Dual 5970s are bad, choo needs a X58 motherboard for running Crossfire properly, triple channel memory is only for X58 boards, and overpriced gaming motherboards are overpriced for nothing you'll likely need.

Hope you've enjoyed reading this here essay, and I look forward to your reply. ;)

[Lance]

... you... SUCK!

Nah, kidding - that was a great read, thanks :) I'll go back to the drawing board, have a look over they ones you mentioned (though obviously 2x 5870's would be the best way to go)

And yeah, with the money I save on those things I may look at a BluRay player instead.

Keyboard/Mouse I was already on that wave length, so I didn't bother mentioning them :) The speakers I was along the same path with the Logitech Z-2300 THX Speakers (a nice compromise to your suggestions at $199)

Anyways, I'll post again on the latest specs when I've done them up - and thanks for the info AA, I appreciate the time that would have taken, thanks :)

[Lance]

Just had a look at the Coolermaster 840. Looks horrid, but the specs are fantastic.

I'm torn though - I'm tempted to stick with the Thermaltake solely because if I get the Coolermaster I'm going to want to mod it into something cool and well, that's a lot of work.

I don't know

[Lance]

Here are the new specs - decided to stick with the Thermaltake (can't be assed moding a boring case, no matter how good the specs are :))

Case:
Thermaltake VG400LBWS

Motherboard:
Asus P6T-Deluxe-V2 X58 LGA1366

CPU:
Intel i7 930 1366

Memory:
Corsair TR3X6G-1600C9 6GB (3x2GB)

Hard Drive:
128Gb Corsair P128 SSD 2.5"

Video Card:
Dual ATI Radeon 5870 Vapor-X

DVD Burner:
Pioneer BDR-205BK 12X Blu-Ray

Power Supply:
Corsair 850W TX-850 ATX

Sound Card:
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi

Keyboard and Mouse:
Logitech G19 Gaming Keyboard
Logitech G5000 Mouse

Speakers:
Logitech Z-2300 THX Speakers

[Jason]

egads. I just added that lot all up and had to do a double-take at the result. I'd be wanting to live in the damn thing for that kind of money. :D

[Archangel]

Here are the new specs - decided to stick with the Thermaltake (can't be assed moding a boring case, no matter how good the specs are :))

Case:
Thermaltake VG400LBWS

Motherboard:
Asus P6T-Deluxe-V2 X58 LGA1366

CPU:
Intel i7 930 1366

Memory:
Corsair TR3X6G-1600C9 6GB (3x2GB)

Hard Drive:
128Gb Corsair P128 SSD 2.5"

Video Card:
Dual ATI Radeon 5870 Vapor-X

DVD Burner:
Pioneer BDR-205BK 12X Blu-Ray

Power Supply:
Corsair 850W TX-850 ATX

Sound Card:
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi

Keyboard and Mouse:
Logitech G19 Gaming Keyboard
Logitech G5000 Mouse

Speakers:
Logitech Z-2300 THX Speakers

Hehe, I don't blame you. The 840 is ungodly awesome, but one the outside its only qualities are that its big and black, and that's never been something I've wanted before now...

But anyway, that looks good from here. The RAM could have better timings (That 'C9' at the end means it's 9-9-9-24), and the C7 has 7-7-7-20 I believe, but that's mostly nitpicking. Sufficed to say, with that rig, you should be set for a while. Hell, I'm still using a 9800GT, and asides from Crysis it runs me everything quite beautifully. I'mma thinkin' with this, you're gonna be set for Crysis 2. It makes me jealous.

Sufficed to say, that thar is a nice rig.

[Lance]

Most of it's your suggestions so it should be nice ;)

Yeah Jase, it is expensive - rough calc is $4,500AUS, but I'm hoping to get a good deal from the guys I'm going through

[Archangel]

I dunno about the prices on all them parts from where you're gettin' 'em from, but I just worked out most of the core parts to be close to $3,000 from ye olde http://pccasegear.com.au/

Seein' as how you're in aussieland too, you can order in from there as well, and they'll deliver. Dunno about how you're putting all the parts together, though, but if there's ~ a 1.5k difference in price there, I'm sure you can find someone who'd put it together for less.

Of course, pccasegear didn't have the Vg400 case, but they've got a VH6000BWS Thermaltake Armor+ instead.

[MyNameDidntFit]

:p Since I'm running Vista on this old trash can of a laptop, 7 can't be any worse.

... my point was more that you were putting it on a list of things to hand money over for ;)

[Lance]

Ahhhhhh

Yeah

Shhhhhhhh ;)

[Lance]

Arch - thanks for that pick up. I was going to go with the shop I know for more convenience than anything. But with such a glaring price difference (I'd have probably brought them down to $4k, still a $1k difference) I'm going to get it delivered.

And with the money, I can go even further with the monitors I'm getting -

2x LG W2486L 24" Monitors (LED lighting, 2ms response time for gaming) which will be wall mounted side by side for general PC use - web surfing, writing etc

Add to that the (probable) 40" Sony Bravia KDL40HX700 (with free PS3) which will be wall mounted above those 2 screens for movies (off the bluray now instead of DVD, 360 playing and general TV use) and I'll have myself a nice set-up

Bear in mind I already have a 52" Sony Bravia KDLZ4500 in the main living room, which the 360 currently runs off, I'm now 2-3 months away from my dream set-up :)

[Archangel]

...

...

You should invite us over some time when you get all this in. Want.

[MyNameDidntFit]

Then get a job, you slack-arse ;)

[Lance]

Sure, come over when ever

Since I'm now offically broke with that setup, you'll need to pay the air fare yourself :)